The Review Club Forum Discussion of Leah�..

Discussion of Leah�s Not Yet Titled: Part One -- The Seduction of Timu Maarinen

Thanks, Kim, for your review.

I understand your impatience with the "strange" names -- I try not to make them too strange -- they're all based on modern European languages -- the weirdest ones are probably the ones derived from Finnish. The names I don't explain immediately will be explained as you read -- wondenng about these things can be a reason to read on -- that's the way such things work for me, anyway, and I know I'm not alone.

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Everyone and everything mentioned in the passage of communication between Elian and Timu is important to the story -- wouldn't be there if they weren't, and the reasons are coming. It's all a bit sketchy at this point because it's pretty vague to Timu. He hasn't been paying attention to politics any more than he has his schoolwork. That's changing now, rapidly.

I want to concentrate on the character of Timu mostly at first, and make the plot elements significant as they become significant to him. He knows almost as little about this stuff as the reader, in this passage, so you aren't really alone. The very next chapter expands on most of these things immediately.

I guess I'm trying to appeal to curiosity and delay gratification just a bit.

That's cool. Like I said I'm not a fan of old world fantasy, because of that reason. I just don't have the patience to learn it all. But I know there is a lot of people that love it and will take the time. I just wanted to tell you how I thought it might be better. I don't know, maybe you could cut some of the Elian reasoning, since Timu doesn't understand it anyway. He would feel motivated enough when he hears the distress in his sister's voice when talking about the Chancelor and Paalo. We can learn about the rest of the politics as he does and it would give a clearer picture. Kind of like the problem I had with chapters 3 and 4 of True Light. I originally had them all just sitting around discussing what they could do. That didn't work, it had a drone on feel to it. I ended up changing the chapters so that they don't talk about what they can do and they just use their powers in front of each other. Hmm... Does that make sense?

That does make some sense, and I'll think about it. If the fuller information in the next section doesn't make up for the sketchiness of this part, and rectify it, I'll consider your suggestion seriously.
Thanks again.

Anthony:

Thanks for the review.

You're right that Timu is unusual. I figure the genre tolerates characters who are beyond the norm.

I'm of two minds about shortening sentences. While I'm willing to adapt to other tastes in some cases, I'm suspicious of the demand to make sentences less complex and shorter. Sometimes I think it's just a lack of experience with longer structures on the part of readers, rather than excess on my part. I'm willing to take a shot at a little simplifying, so specific citations are helpful -- then I can decide whether shorter would be better. I don't need rewrites, though -- just a mention of which sentences seemed cumbersome.

I liked your specific suggestion about what Timu thinks of what Rilsa thinks. It could be rephrased to be more believable. I don't know if I want to articulate the specifics yet, though. I sort of build those up slowly. Delayed gratification, as I mentioned to Kim concerning her review, though about a different aspect of the work.

I don't like to see all caps to represent shouting -- I remember being really put off by that in one of Rowling's books. And what Aulia says is nearly a shout, not quite. She's a very quiet girl.

Moral and social atmosphere is everything in this piece -- in the whole series, in fact. That may take some adjustment for some readers. I'd like to know if I provide enough info, over time, to make matters clear in the text itself. It's very clear in my own head, and I want to present it naturalistically, as the characters themselves experience it -- so not everything is revealed in expository chunks. Mostly the details of mores and social organization are expressed in dialogue and other kinds of interaction.

Thanks again.

When I talk about shortening sentences it is not to make it less complex, it is to move the story along. Get rid of excess wording that do nothing for the story. Trim the fat. For instance, when you talk about him sneaking out the back the second time and scaling a wall, there are groupings of sentences there that slow the pace down. The writing and story is good but as you all ready know publishers will not take these long first novels. Eventually, you will have to hack away.

Does every story have to move quickly? The novel itself isn't very long, about average. I know I have to tighten some things up, but I do question this business of everything having to be quick. Some subjects and situations need a slower pace, it seems to me.

Many of the books I'm very happy with, and that sell well, by the way, would probably be seen as slow by the standard you recommend. (The Patrick O'Brian novels, for example. Mary Renault comes to mind too.) I have to write what I write -- I can't write to a formula for the sake of making a sale. If it's good, it'll find a publisher and an audience.

The quality I'm going for, other than interesting, is memorable. I don't really want readers reading just to find out what happens next, but to savor the characters and the story. That might take a different style than what you're thinking of.

There is nothing wrong with long sentences. The thing to look for is the cadence of the writing while you read. Think of it like composing a song. If every part is verse and no chorus or vice versa, then it will drone on. It is rare to hear a song that don't incorporate both, but it can be done. What you are looking for in sentence length when you write, is to find a good beat to how it sounds while you read it. If it all of it goes. dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Then that is all the reader will hear and it will numb the brain. But if you do something like. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun, dun. It will flow better for the reader and keep them more interested.

Personally, I like to use long sentence when I want the reader to pay more attention to something. Or when expressing emotion, because emotion is complicated and so should the sentences showing them. The idea behind it is knowing when to use longer or shorter sentences. Action should be shorter sentences. Quick action should be plainly short sentences.

As for books that have long sentences all the way through. I'm reading a book like that at the moment. I'm reading All the Kings Men. The author goes into such detail about everything in the story. He even writes 3/4 of page to describe a rug that we haven't seen again in the book yet and I don't think we will. The thing about his writing that I do like, even though his sentence cadence isn't the best is that his writing is just beautiful. He may use long sentences, but everyone of them is interesting and really shows something about the charcters and their inviorment.

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I'm not talking about making everything quick or easy to grasp or carbon copy characters and plots. I'm talking about flow and function. Patrick O'Brian was an artist in the way he constructed sentences and if you look at his longer descriptions you will find an almost poetic quality to them. Everything has a rhyme and reason to them. They are not long for the sake of being long. Not that I'm saying you are doing that. His word choices often seem to shake hands if that makes any sense.

I think you are too close to the story to see what I'm talking about. I was just testing the waters to see if you were interested in discussing some of the lines but I don't want to get into a discussion over assumptions.

I think, generally, that Kim's got a point. I haven't read the second half of Timu, so I don't know if your long sentences work or not, Leah, but I think sentence variety is important. I also tend to write long sentences with lotsa clauses, but when I revise, I like to try to clip up some into shorter sentences. I think it's more interesting to read a variety of sentence lengths and structures, but that's just me.

-cc

I'm not defending complex for the sake of complex. I do employ variety. That's why I want specific citations so that I can make a judgement on whether a sentence needs alterations.

The passage Anthony mentioned as being too slow was meant to be a bit slow and reflective. Evocative of Timu's mood. And not every sentence in it is long. If it's being called on irrelevance -- you have to read the whole story to judge that.

Please, my friends, be specific, so that I can form an appropriate judgment.

I must say something about rhythm, too.

I also write formal poetry, where rhythm must be watched strictly. I'm very aware fo rhythm. The Seduction has a rhythm that derives from Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon language patterns. To begin with it just sort of happened, but when I became aware of it I made an effort to keep it.

I may do away with that though, if it gets in the way of Americans reading the story.

Just some general reflections:

Often when a writer puts something in that doesn't seem to directly serve plot or chartacter it's for some other purpose -- one that requires a little teasing out on the part of the reader -- and some thought. I think that might be what Kim is experiencing with Robert Penn Warren.

I have to admit to doing the same sort of thing. It's my lit. teacher background, I suppose. I look for that kind of stuff in the books I read, and am delighted when I find it. I think it's one of the delights of story-telling, the way you can load it with so much more than just plot. I have the same attitude toward movies, too. I want more than the story.

I've had a few committed readers recognize some of my embedded material, so I know it's not wasted. Ultimately it adds depth to the story, and illuminates character.

Maybe I think I'm a better writer than anyone who's reviewed me in this group has recognized. Maybe I'm wrong. I can take it, if I am, and use the information to improve -- but I have to be given specific citations and reasons. Above all, reasons.

I'd like my reviewers to consider character as well as plot, and look for themes. Pace and matters of style will be impinged upon by all these elements. It's not meant to be simple.

I appreciate everyone's efforts, and I've benefited from many specific suggestions. I still don't quite feel that my work is being read for what it is, however. I'm patient, though, and I can wait for y'all to get the hang of it.

This is an interesting discussion.

First, as to the Leah's text and the comments directly concerning it: I find that Elian's reasoning informs both Timu and the reader at once. And I took it as you said, Leah. I was not for a moment concerned that I was not getting all the implications of what Elian said, as author clearly said neither was Timu. I know as reader I will come to understand as Timu in the course of the story will certainly come to understand. This is called TRUSTING THE AUTHOR. I expect the author of literature to teach me as I read. This activity is partially what defines literature, as opposed to what is written merely for the sake of entertainment, this latter which usually winds up quite forgettable once the reading is done.

I found your sentences not only readable but beautiful in their way of seeming simple while conveying complex ideas.

Yes, author being true to herself is bound to be more successful in the long run than an author worrying constantly about what sells. If what I write is not imbued with more than what "might sell," then I am not extending myself far enough, and I might as well just get a job punching a clock, for all the good I'll do serious readers.

Often I hear reviewers say "this doesn't serve the story." I cringe on hearing this presumption, and wonder how they can know, having read only a small slice of the story. Here again, a reader may as well not read if s/he can't trust the author, at least so long as author has given no reason to believe s/he is not trustworthy.

As to embedded material, I do not write with a need for every reader to get everything I mention. If the text is rich enough for the average reader, then it can certainly contain somthing special now and then for the more discerning reader to enjoy.

I also notice some readers seek to correct dialogue as they would narration, not realizing that dialogue need not be purged of grammatical errors or cliches.

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Now Bill I don't disagree; however, if you don't look to a market, you will be punching a clock for the rest of your life. Market cannot and should not be ignored by a writer, because in the end, what any and EVER author wants is peole to read and VALIDATE their writing.

If it's good, it'll find a publisher and an audience.

That's my first and last word on the subject.

Millions of people punch a clock and worse to make a living. I don't mind being one of them, as long as I'm also doing what I love with all the integrity I can muster. If what I love pays off financially, eventually, so much the better. But I won't prostitute my great passion, ever.

Tell me how I can best make my writing serve my intention. Damn "the market."

From Bill's review:
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He will prove admirable, eventually, but what makes him really worthwhile, I think, are his flaws -- and he has plenty. Some are shared by his family, especially Elian, and some are all his own, but all will contribute to complications for this book and others. The flaws of the protagonists are as important as the outright wickedness of the villains.

Just because it's fantasy, doesn't mean it isn't life.

Dear Julie,

I understand your meaning. If no one ever reads it, the content of the writing will not be seen and will therefore be worthless to humanity. But the act of the writing itself will have enriched my life, and not have been in vain.

The writing is validated already, in that I am confident what insight I have had into the human condition through my experience might be useful to others. I feel it is my job to express my vision as clearly as possible and with every ounce of energy I can muster, so that people will be compelled to check it out.

If I give full effort, with good intention, I will have no regrets if it turns out that no one reads me, as there is enough inspirational material out there, even without my little contribution. Even as the gene pool will not suffer for my never having procreated, so humanity will not suffer from never having known my mind. I work in hopes of contributing, while knowing that we all will be just fine if I and my works die tomorrow.

PS I like you new Kill Bill image. Very bushido.

Hey Leah, review of Part 1, Chapter 1 up. Nicely done.