The Review Club Forum The Dreaded Market

Yep, so I'm going to start this thread.

Let's get this right up front. I think the market is the bane of my existence. It's fickle and incomprehensible and a hassle. I don't like sending sales pitches disguised as query letters out (OK, I kinda do, at least now that I've written the query letter, but writing it was awful). I don't like waiting for answers, finding rejections in the inbox, or fighting with synopses. And I don't like the internal contradiction between the NEED to write for yourself to really be interested in writing and the NEED to face what the market is to get anybody but your friends and mom to read your writing. I don't like guessing.

But here's why I care about the market. If I were writing PURELY for myself, it would be called a diary, as Cameron likes to say. I'm writing to be READ. And the market offers millions and millions of people to potentially read me. It would be AWESOME if millions of people would read my work. Can you imagine your story getting to MILLIONS of people? Wow.

So it's a love/hate relationship I've got with the market.

I'm just going to leave this open. What do you think about the market? How do you account for it in your work? At what stage?

For that matter... what is the market right now? Where do you see it heading? We all know that books are semi-endangered what with all the other distractions in the 21st century, so where now for writers?

-cc

Interesting CC. I think there's a few directions the market is going with the PODs and everything else. In fiction I've noticed a trend towards more literary works, with the impact Oprah's had on books and the pushing of award winners in retail stores -- Cormac McCarthy of course, but others too -- I think that's what books can offer that you can't get from other forms of media. The jury's still out on this one.

Have you ever read Nathan Bransford's myspace blogs? He's a lit agent for Curtis Brown. He's always wondering where the market is going as well, as even those in the industry are not sure.

A great story well written will sell.

Let's hope we all find our great story and write it well.

Norm:

I hate to say it, but a great, well written story won't necessarily sell. I wish it wasn't true, but it is. I wish the world was fair that way, but it isn't, and neither is the market.

Every one of us has read novels that would be destroyed by reviews on here or urbis, but alas, they are sitting on a shelve at Barnes and Noble. And we've all read amazing stories that never see the light of day. So market and the considertion of it, is vital to a writer. I'm not saying write to the market, nor am I implying that you should give up your artistic vision. What I am trying to say is that a novel will never be shelved at B&N if you don't query agents, and pitch to editors.

Even the best story won't generate interest unless you promote it. So while writing that damn fine story, a writer must also write a brillant query, a concise synopsis, and have a entertaining pitch. And more so than anything else, you have to get lucky!

Here's to each of us writing a a hell of a story and getting lucky! ::biggrin::

Julie

I'm going to stick to my principle* and my idealistic view of human nature as a whole.

If I fail, I won't be the first or the last to do so.


-norm

*I never said that a great story well written would sell for the big bucks, just that it will sell... eventually.

Hmmm...I think Norm and Julie are both right. It takes luck and it takes a good story. But most of all I think it takes confidence. If you present yourself in your queries as confident and you present yourself in your work as confident and you present yourself in your critiques as confident and you present yourself in your responses to critiques as confident, others will bet on your horse.

I am curious what Cameron's take on this thread will be, because I do believe that folks who work in sales have a unique understanding of this.

I ran an art gallery for a couple years and the most successful artists were always the most confident. They were out there selling their work more than the gallery staff was. They did not just hang a show, then go back to their caves. While it is hard to remain confident in the face of bad reviews and rejection, it seems to me that if you have faith in yourself, you will persevere.

Come to think of it...I think most of all it takes perseverance. Nevermind all that crap about confidence.

If you want to get into the nuts and bolts of getting an agent and publisher and moving some product, it comes down to platform and finding a platform. I was hanging with a bunch of industry types recently and they LOVE platform. Though the idea of having a platform is generally reserved for non-fiction (if you write a book on Renaissance Grammar, start going to Renaissance fairs and make lots of friends - they will all buy your book) I have my own theories on how novelists can find a platform too. I've already gone on too long, but I'll jump back in later with more, because this is a very important topic for everyone if you want to maximize your success. (Doesn't that sound like a sales pitch?)

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On the whole query letter thing, Nathan wrote a blog about that today. He was demonstrating that the query letter is something lit agents do to -- they have to "sell" the work to the publisher.

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I think you are completely right. Persistence is needed. Writing the tale may seem like the hardest part but in reality finding a publisher probably is for most. I also believe in working up to getting a novel published. So many novelists rack up a list of published short stories before agents and publishers take a look at them. You have to pay your dues. If the day comes when I think I have something worth publishing I'll worry about it then.

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I think you are completely right. Persistence is needed. Writing the tale may seem like the hardest part but in reality finding a publisher probably is for most. I also believe in working up to getting a novel published. So many novelists rack up a list of published short stories before agents and publishers take a look at them. You have to pay your dues. If the day comes when I think I have something worth publishing I'll worry about it then.[/quote]

Agreed. Unless the story jumps off the page and some agent or editor goes, OMG, I need to have some decent publication credits, IMHO. Although lit agents deny this. If the story is compelling they'll jump on it ... I have my doubts. I'm not too worried as I think I have to develop as a writer quite some ways yet before I'll be in a position to consider submitting a novel. I'm just not there yet.

Here's one for you all. The lit agent who discovered Rowling is touting the next Harry Potter, a duo, who he's pulled from the self-published slush pile, offered 500,000 pounds to, and have them now with a publisher.

So many things to say.

First, Brent, you are absolutely, unapologetically, right. With your film experience, which is a market that is probably justifiably termed more "commercial," you probably have a lot of wisdom to offer all of us about the intersection of art and market. It is about confidence, persistence, and sales understanding. And a platform or a brand is important. I think I have some ideas myself. Part of what it comes down to, to me, is thinking about who is going to like whatever I'm writing. What is the audience? And then how do I present my work to get at that audience?

The thing about the market and bestsellers that I always remind myself is: OK, so this may not be the most beautiful writing (usually isn't), but a lot more people bought it than bought that beautifully written book by the next author in alphabetical order on the same shelf. Why? You can say that the bestseller appeals to the lowest common denominator and sneer at it, or you can think about what appealing to the lowest common denominator really means. There is something about books that sell really well that appeal to something in a wide variety of people. It's not that they are stupid or written for idiots, because nothing written at that level makes it onto the adult shelves. Agents and publishers are, on average, more literate, with higher standards, than the lowest common denominator. I think it really is that there's something those writers have tapped into and made accessible to a lot of readers. And that's a really amazing accomplishment, whether they did so with a literary medium and became a literary bestseller or through bodice ripper romance and became a romance bestseller.

The advantage of knowing the market is that it allows you to look at what affects people and try to do it yourself. Only reason I pay attention to the market (other than the whole querying routine).

-cc

I'm going to jump in again.

Funny, but we all seem to be saying the say thing, but via a different filter. Literary, commerical, screenplays, art. Whether you call it market, or think in terms of getting people to read your work, we all want approval for our 'art' (I can see cc cringe). So my hats off to each and every person with the guts to put themselves out there.

But let me also say that with my earlier comments, I in no way meant to imply that story is unimportant, or that money is the ultimate goal. Publication is, or at least it is for me, whether its basement press, or a print journal with twenty subscribers.

Therefore, I play the publishing game, querying, pitching, writing and revising. One day it will pay off, and if not, I'll have one hell of a full hard drive and lots of fond memories of the great people inside the industry, writers, agents, and editors alike.

So some many sneer at the idea of market, and that's fine. One less writer fighting for the four new novelist slots at a big house. ::suprised::

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Ok, sales is a funny thing. Honestly if anyone is interested in selling anything I'd suggest picking up a copy of Glengarry Glen Ross and watching it. If you can find the special two-disc set there's a extra on sales. One of the real estate agents said it best when he said "Sales isn't about what you want. It's about understanding what the customer wants." Or at least something like that.

The funny thing is that we all know this on some level. If a product or service meets a customers needs then they will buy it. All sales is convincing a customer that this product or service will meet their needs.

I don't think the market is any different. What writers are trying to do is provide a service to their readers. Why else would we try to improve? Because I know what's going on in my mind, I want other people to see the world as I see it. So I don't think writing for the market is a bad thing. In fact unless we're striving to be James Joyce and have twenty of our closest friends read our stuff, It is the goal.

The goal is to convince a third party (an agent or editor) that our product (the story) will meet their needs (to sell a lot of books or magazines). Okay so that's what the salesman/reporter in me says.

Now I could go into the whole artist/writer thing, but I have a feeling I'd get a lot of rotten tomatoes coming my way. So I'll leave my two cents there.

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Absolutely. It is a product that needs to be sold, and so the saying, "study your markets." Not every story should be written and not every writer should be read, but more than that, the industry is designed to sell books. It is a product. You provide the basis of that product but others will decide whether it's sold. There must be something absolutely compelling about the story to sell it; and it must fit a certain market or target reader.

I've read some stuff by people who understand the rules of fiction writing very well, and can express it with amazing skill, and while their writing is technically right out of Swain or Gardner, the stories are yawners. Look at Cormac McCarthy and his writing style, that would be torn to shreds by most reviewers (including me), but there's something about the stories themselves that's magic. It's really a balance of elements to make the story itself approachable, but the story itself must be approachable. On the other hand, I've read some stuff by people who's writing skills are questionable at best, but goddamn it, there's something about the story that draws the reader in. Mostly, it has to do with voice -- is the voice compelling. It's about tapping into something universal that fascinates the reader.

Anyways, my loose change.

I have two different responses to your points, Rob.

First, I can't agree more about the merits of a good story. All of my favorite literary pieces (and yeah, despite how much genre I've been writing lately, I read literary almost exclusively) have excellent, riveting stories, as well as the traditionally well-concieved and complex characters and beautiful language. Without story, pretty words are just poetry, really, and usually not great poetry because even poetry has a point, whereas story-less novels sorta don't. Even Only Revolutions by Danielewski (who is my favorite contemporary experimental writer) is BARELY novel, but it still has this profound story to it. You can dress it up all you want, but there has to be something substantial in the story. *bows before Rob for saying it so much better than me*

Second, I have to disagree about publication credits. Yes, they are one, very good route to publication of a novel. Definitely. In fact, that is the recommended course for literary if you don't want to go get an MFA, straight from a published literary writer's mouth to me once. BUT, there are EXCELLENT literary writers that published novels without shorts (as far as I can tell, Danielewski is one of them, can't find any shorts before House of Leaves referenced on the internet at least). So that means I have to write a BRILLIANT novel. Daunting, yes, but I'm OK with having a higher bar set. I'm also blessed to be in a group of writers that all have the potential to leap frog to the top, I think. (Or, maybe I just need to tell myself that you can sell a novel without publication credits because I hate and suck and writing shorts as a general rule. Probably both. ::tongue:: )

-cc

Hey CC,

I have no doubt you'll get that novel picked up by an agent. And with that, I'll be looking in on your chapters this week. Thanks for the great discussion!

Rob,

lol... THAT particular novel, well... it's still way way way in draft so don't think me crazy for hoping I can sell a REVISED novel to a publisher! Thanks for the kind words though.

-cc