The Review Club Forum Self-Censorship Thread

I want to open a discussion and see what you all think about graphic images and details about sex, drugs and violence in your writing and to what degree anyone self-censors.

It has come up as an issue for me as some family and friends have been reading my work and feeling uncomfortable with some of it. Also, I recently got a rejection from an agent who wrote: "unfortunately, some of the subjects this work touches on are not for me, which is not to say other agents may not be interested."

So, off the top of my head, the questions up for consideration are:

1 - To what degree do any of you "tone down" your writing with audience in mind?

2 - Does the writing suffer when/if it is watered down?

3 - Is there as big an audience out there for the edgy stuff as there are folks who may be offended by it?

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Hey Brent. To answer your questions here's my take on it.

1. Every word. I try to think about audience with every single word and phrase, so when something is graphic there's a really good reason for it. It should shock.

2. No. I believe the process is a two way street -- with the reader having the upper hand. Nothing wrong with leaving it to the reader's imagination.

3. I think there's a market for edgy stuff but I also think there's way too much of it out there that's just graphic for graphic sake. I believe to use the graphic stuff, the shocker stuff, it needs to serve a purpose. If it serves a purpose that's central to the story, then go for it. There's also a question of timing. When do you want to shock? You can always toss in shockers at any point in a story, to manipulate the reader.

My dollar forty-nine.

Rob

Hey Brent:

k, so my take on this is probably different than most since I mostly write the same sort of hard-boiled, edgy stuff you do.

I to have had some...embarrassment (not sure that's the right word) for some of my stuff. Yeah, it's hard to watch your mom's face when she reads the words cum stained floor, or about a vibrator named George.

Many of my characters are edgy and I am always concerned when submitting those pieces to agents or editors that they will be turned off by the subject matter. Now the question is, should we as writers take that into consideration when writing?

I agree with Rob that you need to consider your audience, and in doing so, you must consider YOUR audience. See my mom isn't my audience, neither is the Christian right, or the Oprah book club. My audience, much like yours, are hardcore mystery reads who like the gritty urban feel. The ones that understand addiction, and want a pulp novel.

As for shock value, my intention is anything but. I don't use words, situations, and descriptions to shock people, but rather to entertain them. If someone is shocked, my guess is they probably picked my story up by mistake.

Does it hurt the writing to tone it down? Hell yes. Okay, that was the short answer. The longer one wonders if anyone ever asked a Oprah book (can you tell I have a Oprah book club bias) to tone down the emotional vomit? Or asked a romance writer to tone down the cheesy sex scenes? Or begged a literary writer to focus strictly on plot?

I say to the agent that turned you down, ::tongue:: . His loss. But you know there are plenty (maybe not as many as cutesy fiction agents) agents out there accepting edgy stuff. Since it is also the books I read, I look for who my favorite authors� agents are, and query them.

Because Jerry Stahl, Luke Davies, Irvine Welsh, etc all sell books, so there is a market. Guess we just have to find those who appreciate it. I wish you luck in doing so, and would be happy to share a listing of agents who might dig SP.

Great question, and I look forward to hearing from the rest of the group.

Julie

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This is a good question, but I doubt there really is a clear cut answer. While of course you have to keep your audience in mind, writing a lukewarm piece because your afraid of offending will be a greater disservice.

1) I would never tone down anything if I am writing what actually happens. I could tone down sex, violence, or language but the truth is if your writing true events, rather something you want to be percieved as true, you should present it as you see it.

2) I think writing will always suffer when you do not hold true to reality. Tone it down all you want but it will ring hollow when it is viewed in the minds eye.

3) Books are like Porn, there is an audience for even the weird s**t, our job is to make it pretty enough to take pictures of it. Okay now that could be considered offensive... but really, I know people who are offended by Dr. Seuss. If you hold true to your story and present the questionables in the proper way based on your type of story you can't go wrong.

Thats the way I see it. Don't worry about what one person thinks about offensive stuff... for that matter if you know it is offensive judge your success on how red your mothers face gets when she reads about George the Happy Vibrator.

Gabe

There is a chapter coming up in Baton Cramoisi that has a 1500 word sex scene. It is a pivotal moment so I couldn't keep it short and sweet. However, when I post it I will be changing my avatar picture from my face. I think it'll be the only sex scene in the book. That said, you have to write what you are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable with it why force it? I criticized another writer for writing a lukewarm sex scene. After thinking about it, I believe I was wrong.

That said, I don't think it'll help nor hinder a writer in getting published. You have to match the writing to the agent/publisher/editor. Too soft or too hard, if it isn't submitted to the right place forget about it.

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Okay I'm going to lead off by saying this is a great question. Thanks a lot Brent for asking these. And there are a lot of good answers to this and it's neat to see a lot of interesting answers.

1. Okay, this is kind of funny question. Mostly because I've been told I need to tone up my writing more often than not. Although honestly though, I'm of two minds on this one. The reporter in me says the audience is the end all be all. So if my writing is not approachable by the audience that I'm intending for the piece then yes, I would tone it done. The obnoxious a*****e writer in me says screw 'em. If they don't like it they can go and read Peanuts and watch Hallmark movies.

2. Now this depends on the writing. I don't think there is a good answer to this. It all depends on the story.

3. The audience for the edgy stuff is never going to be as big as the audience for non-edgy stuff. (See Julie's comments on the Oprah book club)

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This first question plagued me for a long time a few years back when I first started publishing. I am probably the oldest in this group (though I could be wrong) and was raised in an EXTREMELY conservative extended family deep in the heart of the Bible belt. No cussing, no drinking, no dancing, no kissing on the first date, etc. etc. (Quit rolling those eyes! ::tongue:: ) Some of them would be offended and upset at my work, as mild as most people think it is. (That is one reason I choose a pen name - while I will write what I want to, I don't want to cause them trouble, as I love them all deeply.)

I write on a couple of different 'levels'. One of my series is geared more for the PG crowd. However, I'm currently working on a novel to be published this fall that contains content I wouldn't sell to anyone under 18.

I don't write edgy stuff, and I know some people don't care for my style. It seems too safe for them. But, I write what I'd like to read. At the end of a frazzled week, I don't want to be scared spitless or grossed out or depressed. I want an entertaining, well-crafted, thoroughly enjoyable story, with all its twists, turns and surprises. (I guess that's cuz, at my age, all 3 of my remaining nerves are shot.)

2. Does the toned-down writing suffer? If the story is based solely on being edgy, then yes, it will suffer. However, if the plot is solid and the characters real, it doesn't have to.

3. Is there as big an audience for the edgy stuff? I doubt it. Though I know it has its market.

If you give you a nickel for this opinion, I guess I owe you three cents.

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Belle:

I just wanted to say that from what I have read, I enjoy your style, edge or not. And I hope that you are not grossed out, depressed or anything else by what you read from my end. And if it does offend you, I want you to know I appreciate your reviews very much, and understand if you'd prefer not to read further.

As to a market, you'd be surprised by how big the pulp market is. Not nearly as big as the romance one though.

Julie

Julie - you are so thoughtful! No, your work hasn't bothered me. ::cool:: I enjoy your work.

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It has me... I feel violated. BRB must take shower ::tongue:: ::drool::

BTW Julie I'm just about to finish Torpedo Juice. What a crazy ride.

Voilated sure, but dirty? I think not!

So how much do you LOVE serge? Isn't he one of the bestest characters EVER? I so wanna tell you how it ends.... ::biggrin::

I can't think of the comedians name but Surge reminds me of him. Older white guy, big belly, has big bulging eyes, smokes a cigar I think. Does a lot of wife jokes. Laughed my butt off when Surge and the wife were at the counselors. Nope I didn't see that ending coming. I thought the COP was going to be a hero again or something. I wont say much incase someone else wants to read the book. AND MAN that poor cop and his bad wife!

I also loved the narrator. In a lot of ways it was like writing done for writers.